Kurt is joined by Dr David Junior Gilbert from the University of Salford in the UK. He is a University Fellow researching the intersection of FASD and the criminal justice system. His research focuses on factors that make individuals with FASD more vulnerable to involvement in the criminal justice system, such as confabulation, suggestibility, compliance, and acquiescence. Dr. Gilbert is leading a larger international study examining these issues in multiple countries, aiming to provide scientific evidence to support decision-making in the justice system.
For more information about FASD, please go to: https://www.nofasd.org.au/
If you are interested in the international study on Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) and the justice system, at the time of the release of this podcast Dr Gilbert is still recruiting research participants. To express your interest in being involved please see: https://app.onlinesurveys.jisc.ac.uk/s/salford/international-fasd-and-justice-system-study
Producers: Kurt Lewis, Louise Gray and Julie Flanagan
Interviewer: Kurt Lewis
Interviewees: Dr David Junior Gilbert
Narrator: Frances Price
The copyright is owned by NOFASD Australia.
All rights reserved – No reproduction or use of this content without written consent of Kurt Lewis and NOFASD Australia. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the interviewee. NOFASD makes every effort to ensure all content is free from judgement and stigma. NOFASD’s mission includes reducing stigma for families and individuals impacted by FASD.
Biography
Dr David Junior Gilbert is an interdisciplinary researcher in the School of Health and Society at the University of Salford, in Manchester, UK. Gilbert (as he prefers to be called) is a member of the academic network of Her Majesty’s Prisons and Probation Service (HMPPS), Society for Evidence Based policing, Neurodivergence in the Criminal Justice Network, and Salford FASD research group. Gilbert is passionate about increasing the knowledge, understanding and awareness surrounding the vulnerabilities of individuals with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) to, and within, criminal justice system (CJS) encounters.
Transcript
Frances Price (00:02):
How much do you know about the effects of alcohol during pregnancy? The reality may surprise you.
Alcohol exposure while in the womb can damage the brain of the developing baby, causing it to develop Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder or FASD. It may lead to lifelong physical, and/or neuro-developmental impairments, such as problems with memory, attention, cause and effect reasoning, and difficulties in adapting to situations.
For such an impactful disorder it is rarely spoken about in the popular media. NOFASD Australia’s podcast series is designed to raise awareness and understanding of FASD by giving listeners an opportunity to hear from those who have the deepest understanding of the impacts of FASD. This is Pregnancy, Alcohol and FASD – The Surprising Reality.
This podcast features another researcher who presented his research in “The Three-Minute Thesis” session of NOFASD’s online conference The FASD Forum ’24, held in May this year. As the name suggests, for this conference session researchers were asked to provide an engaging summary of their research, explaining the premise of the research and the outcomes within the strict time-limit of just three minutes.
Frances Price (01:32):
While that sounds like quite a feat, the twelve finalists in this session all nailed the brief, making it a difficult task for the judging panels to decide on the winners of the two prizes on offer.
Today’s guest who is researching at the University of Salford, in Manchester in the United Kingdom, was one of those prize winners. He is researching on a topic that we know is of great interest to those living with FASD – that of engagement with the criminal justice system.
So, it’s my pleasure now to hand over to Kurt Lewis, the host of NOFASD Australia’s podcast series, who will introduce our special guest for this episode.
Kurt Lewis (02:21):
Welcome, welcome everyone to this episode of Pregnancy, Alcohol, and FASD:The Surprising Reality. I’m your host, Kurt Lewis, the friendly neighborhood podcaster. For this episode, I’m sitting down with a University Fellow in the School of Health and Society at the University of Salford. I’m sitting down with Dr David Junior Gilbert. How is it going, Gilbert, how are you doing?
David Junior Gilbert (02:49):
Hello Kurt. Hi. I am alright, thank you so much for having me. It’s all well here. Quite sunny and warm here in the UK. Absolutely. We are enjoying it. It’s beautiful here. So thank you for asking and I hope you’re well too.
Kurt Lewis (03:05):
Oh well, I’m not enjoying the warm weather like you. It’s winter down here. It’s freezing. I’ve got a cold. It’s miserable. I think it’s bizarro world at the moment., you know I think
David Junior Gilbert (03:16):
Just relocate. Just relocate stuff probably. We’ll accommodate you happily. Don’t worry.
Kurt Lewis (03:23):
Sounds like a good plan. Good plan. Well, starting off Gilbert, I’m wondering if you could tell our listeners when you first became aware of FASD if there was a particular reason that drew you to focus on this disability in your research.
David Junior Gilbert (03:38):
Thank you for that. Yes, certainly. I’m happy to share. And I actually first came, well we here in the UK call it F-A-S-D. We think you Australians call it even more cooler FASD, but bear with me. I will say F-A-S-D because that’s what I’m used to. So I came across FASD in I think 2018 – yeah- about nearly six years ago when I had a fully-funded scholarship to study for a Master’s in Public Health here at the University of Salford in Manchester. And prior to that I had my undergraduate in biochemistry. So I trained as a biochemist essentially. And I had five years of engagement as a medical rep with a pharmaceutical company where I was dealing with a portfolio that had to do with patients who had some terminal ailments. And looking back at that experience, I think it sort of laid the foundation for my interest in FASD.
(04:42):
And this is because at the time it was really clear that many of the patients I was working alongside with, we sort of were able to develop interventions or administer interventions because they had a correct diagnosis as we say it. But I think what really struck me during the period of my MSC, I was looking for a project topic at the time and I decided to go around and see what sort of research projects were ongoing at the time within the School of Health and Society. And I came across the research by Professor Penny Cook and Professor Raja Mukherjee who are our research leads here at Salford. It struck me that FASD was a condition that was really not known about. It struck me that FASD was a condition that was often misdiagnosed as other conditions. It struck me that FASD was under-diagnosed and it struck me that FASD was completely missed during diagnostic procedures. So those three words, missed diagnosis, misdiagnosis and under-diagnosis sort of really sets or lit the fire in me as I usually say, and have not recovered really since that time I read about these three potential issues that impact individuals of FASD. So that’s really how I came to the research in FASD and it has been an interesting journey. I’ve sort of really enjoyed the learning process and the opportunity to work with senior colleagues who are extremely passionate and continue to inspire young researchers like us to do what we do.
Kurt Lewis (06:26):
Well, it sounds like an incredible journey in pharmacy rep to University Fellow. I mean the – quite a few interesting steps along that journey. It’s fascinating how you went and you saw an area that you could help improve and you kind of dived into that. Not many people would see that and take it up with such passion.
David Junior Gilbert (06:47):
Fundamentally, at the time I was looking for a research project. There was just one thing on my mind at that moment. I wasn’t really looking for anything massive or big in that sense. All I was looking for was a research area that would impact just one person on earth. I was just out there to say what kind of research can I do if it would sort of positively impact, out of the billions of people on earth, if it’s just one person that benefits from the research, I would be happy. So that was the sort of mindset I had at the time. And when I did come across FASD, I thought, wow, this is quite, especially when you look at the statistics of alcohol consumption in pregnancy, the prevalence and some of the issues around the stigma, the lack of knowledge with professionals and all the issues that impact the FASD community, I just thought, well whatever I can contribute to this, if it’ll make any difference, no matter how small, I am you know. contented, I’ll be satisfied. And that’s what began my journey or that was what really inspired that first step into FASD research. I started off with working with social workers who were working with children suspected to have FASD. And right in the middle of that my attention really got drawn into the criminal justice system where I currently work.
Kurt Lewis (08:16):
Incredible. It sounds incredible. You recently presented a summary of your recent research during the “Three-Minute Thesis” session of The FASD Forum ‘24 conference and you were a joint winner of the “People’s Choice Award” for this presentation. How did it feel to win an award for your presentation? I know you mentioned just before that only – if your research could help one person, that would be amazing. How does it feel to kind of have your research validated by a panel of judges who have lived experience?
David Junior Gilbert (08.50):
Well, I think for me it was a moment of real humility. I was really humbled by the fact that they did consider my research worthy of such recognition. And I would, as I always say to the parents and caregivers who contribute to my research, that it is not just me. It would not be possible without parents, families, individuals with FASD contributing their time and passion to just be part of the assessments I do and contribute to the research just tirelessly. So really I sort of owe that gratitude to these families and of course the community, it was quite an experience to see that time and effort they had actually volunteered in providing this kind of data that is providing experimental insights and is also being recognszed by such a panel that the research is actually making a difference. So I would say I’m grateful to them because I mean, no matter how clever we think we are as researchers, there’s nothing we can do without the goodwill of these families and parents.
(07:41):
And I really remain indebted to them even currently now going forward with the research I do. If there’s anything that inspires me more than anything else and sitting with these families is the level of resilience, the persistence and perseverance they show over the years in the face of so much misunderstanding from professionals, from systems, from governments and from all sectors and keep driving. When you as a researcher sit and hear stories, I mean I wonder, I don’t think you can sort of go to sleep without thinking of a way around these issues if I mean you could be of any help in any way. So my gratitude goes to these families more than anything else.
Kurt Lewis (10:49):
Wow, your compassion is incredible. If you don’t mind me saying Gilbert,
David Junior Gilbert (10:53):
I don’t think it’s just me. Kurt, FASD is a condition that lives with us in that sense. I mean for lack of a better expression, and I will tell you this, within the research community here where I work and I’ve got colleagues who work in different areas, engineering and the arts in media and technology. And I can tell you along the course of advance of my career within this field in research, there’s just no one single researcher I sit and talk about FASD that doesn’t take the time to ponder. It drives home, if you see what I mean, because it is a topic that is, it just lives with us and it stirs up something in you that you just want to do something if you have capacity to.
Kurt Lewis (11:44):
For those who are unfamiliar with your research who weren’t lucky enough to attend The FASD Forum ‘24, can you tell us about it? What are you studying?
David Junior Gilbert (11:54):
I am really drawn to first of all the encounters of individuals with FASD in the criminal justice system. And this is based on my study around this area where we know from international evidence some few studies available from Canada, from the US and a few other jurisdictions, that individuals of FASD are 19 times more likely to encounter the criminal justice system. And what this really means is that there is a higher level of vulnerability. It doesn’t mean that individuals with FASD are criminals, no, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t trust it to the opinion that once you have a diagnosis of FASD automatically you are criminal. No, my interpretation of this is that once you have a diagnosis of FASD, it sets the context for behaviours or characteristics that could be of interest to the justice system. And for my PhD I set out to really investigate the factors that make it much more likely for individuals with FASD to come in contact with justice system.
(13:05):
And again, not all individuals with FASD encounter the justice system. Not all individuals with FASD get into crime and other issues that may send them through that trajectory. But I was really curious that for the population that are really at risk and go down that route, what are the vulnerabilities that impacts that journey? What are the factors that sort of creates that context for much more higher rate of trouble with the justice system? And, I mean to study this, I narrowed down my focus on a few factors like confabulation. So confabulation, which is – it just simply means a scenario where an individual does not really remember the context of an event and begins to fabricate or develop imaginary stories to fill in these gaps. And we know from wider research, that this is a big source of contamination within the justice system and whatever testimony you provide, if it’s a confabulated testimony, there’s a tendency that you can incriminate yourself and that testimony goes throughout the process until it gets to court and impacts the sentencing.
(14:24):
So, I strongly focus on confabulation, I focus on suggestibility – suggestibility, which means the extent to which individuals would accept responsibility for crimes they never committed. So when they have been interviewed by the police or by justice system professionals and they’re asked questions about the situation, if they found themselves in, when these suggestions are being pushed to them from police or forensic interviewers, what is the level of acceptance of liability for crimes they never committed And why I’m also focused on compliance. Compliance is very related to suggestibility. What it has to do with a lot of power balance and this is where individuals can easily be manipulated by peers or colleagues or associates to commit criminal activities. Those three factors are of interest to me in addition to another vulnerability known as acquiescence. Acquiescence really just talks about the extent to which individuals just say yes or give certain responses irrespective of the content of the questions. So these are the things that sit alongside impulsivity, adaptive and functioning, executive functioning and a bit of history of trauma just to see how these things relate to impact encounters with the justice system. Those are the main focus of research at the moment.
Kurt Lewis (15.58):
I was just wondering, you have been studying the intersection between FASD and the justice system for three to four years. Why focus on this topic specifically? Why do you think this is important? You’ve kind of listed that people with FASD are more vulnerable within the justice system, but you could say that a lot people with FASD in a lot of other systems, why focus particularly on the justice system?
David Junior Gilbert (16:19):
Firstly, it is the fact that we know again from the testimonies of parents and any of us that there has been a lot of engagement within this community with the police, justice system and probation service. And the issue really that is really evident, is the fact that there has been no experiment or evidence to prove some of these vulnerabilities within this population. So yes, there are a lot of published papers that talk about these parents and of course you and I know that many times parents’ testimonies are ignored within justice system context and all of that, because the view society always has is for scientific and experiential evidence. And this is sort of what continues to drive my work to say, well for some of these issues how do we experiment and improve these and sort of provide some of the backings that science can help to advance decision making within the justice system? So, that is one point in time. Secondly, the fact also, again like I mentioned earlier, that we know that international evidence shows us that the population may be more vulnerable compared to others. And I think it’s a massive inequality if there is no focus from society on this condition just because of the potential outcomes if individuals with FASD are not supported, or if interventions are not developed to ensure that such trajectories are completely just avoided.
Kurt Lewis (18:05):
So currently you are conducting a larger study with people from around the world, including Australia. Could you tell us more about this study and what is your aim for this research? I understand it’s in the same kind of context as FASD and the justice system, but what is the particular aim for this kind larger study?
David Junior Gilbert (18:25):
Right. So just a bit of background on this course. So after my PhD where I studied suggestibility in a smaller sample in the UK, I studied suggestibility, confabulation and compliance. I had a small sample of 52 young people between the ages of 11 and 16 where experimentally we were able to see the difference in suggestibility and confabulation between those with FASD and those who were without FASD at the time. I was lucky to receive a five-year fellowship from the University of Salford to focus in deeply on FASD and the justice system. So with this fellowship it provides me an opportunity to focus on this research in a manner that will be able to explain the mechanisms behind some of what we have seen in my previous research. I think it’s a massive blessing because that’s my passion obviously. And here is a massive opportunity.
(19:32):
My workload is just research in this area, cause the university is really interested in understanding more – providing evidence in this area. And what has then happened, is I then decided to come together with senior researchers who graciously have agreed to support the work. So senior experts from Australia, from New Zealand, from Canada, from the US and yeah the UK. And also we have collaboration from the Republic of Ireland. So collection of researchers who are really interested in this area. We want to study confabulation compliance questions, suggestibility itself to understand the mechanism in all of these jurisdictions. So six countries in total. And hopefully our objective is that at the end of this study, so we have this study running for two years, we are hoping that at the end of it we can publish scientific papers to – as a group, as a collective – to evidence what findings were found to sort of let the world know exactly what we have seen and hopefully we can show what FASD looks like universally, cause remember we started off from this small UK sample or let us then see what these vulnerabilities will look like in samples from around the world. That’s kind of the objective driving the work at the moment.
Kurt Lewis (21:03):
That sounds like a very exciting study to be honest. It’s always good when you get a very wide sampling of people with FASD for these kind of studies. You can do a lot more with the evidence once you’ve gathered it all and you’re able to make a conclusion based on what you received. So that’s incredible.
David Junior Gilbert (21:21):
Yes we are moving on slowly, the recruitment is picking up and there’s been quite some interest. We are hoping we can get lots of interest, lots of participation because as you know in the scientific world, the more numbers you get then the stronger your conclusions will be. So we are hoping we can get that the level of cooperation from families and individuals with FASD this time around.
Kurt Lewis (21:48):
Well we’ll make sure to include your flyer that you’re sharing across social media onto this podcast. Put the details onto there. So if anyone’s interested in your research in participating, please check out the show notes or the podcast blog. We’ll contain a full transcript of this episode and all the bells and whistles including any assorted links. So if you’re interested, please feel free to check it out. So final question, here’s the big one. Do you think there is more our listeners could be doing as individuals or we could be doing as a whole society to help people with FASD and their families?
David Junior Gilbert (22:25):
Yes, absolutely massive yes. Capital, yes. Block letter,yes. I will say there’s so much the society can do and there’s a lot to say in this area, but just focusing on my own area of research, which is sort of my comfort zone, the justice system, there’s a lot – and one of the arguments I’ve made in the past with some of the stakeholders for example here in the UK is the fact that one of the principle, or two principle objectives, of the justice system, of the whole prison system is first of all deterrence, secondly rehabilitation. And if we don’t consider FASD during justice systems or the world, we certainly would not achieve any of these objectives because the interventions being developed in custody do not pay attention to the needs of an individual with FASD. And what we stand, the risk we stand to sort of incur with that is that at the end of the day we have people getting into the system and coming out more damaged.
(23.34):
This is aside to the cost to public resources. Cause in my argument I feel it is a waste of the taxpayers money to do such things. So on different levels, on several levels, it is injustice, I would say with a reduced sense of respect for professionals within justice systems. There’s a lot that can be done. So for instance, aside all these vulnerabilities, we know that individuals with FASD, they also have strengths, they have things they’re actually good at. How about we get to a point where custodial plans, sentencing plans, rehabilitation plans within the justice system, consider FASD and consider the inclusion of strength-based activities for this population within such plans. You know essentially you then begin to work toward targeted outcomes where the lives of individuals with FASD would be massively improved. So, for me that’s a very massive thing because if not, what we are just doing without considering FASD, is just causing more damage, rather than trying to rehabilitate people. It defeats the purpose of rehabilitation in that sense. So there is a lot on different levels, the educational sector or the social services and what have you, there’s a lot society can do, but it’s just that level of awareness, professional insight into it, for professionals to embrace the fact that we can all do better as a society to improve outcomes for this population.
Kurt Lewis (25:17):
I, a hundred percent, agree with that. When you kind of talk about FASD, even with people who aren’t FASD informed, you kind of get, they go, oh, I know what that is, but they don’t really make the connection about how that all impacts. It impacts the justices and how that impacts all the different other things. They just see that one person, they go, oh yeah, that’s what it is. Dismissive kind of thing. It’s hard to get that kind of level of awareness where they’re able to go, oh, that’s very mind blowing – you know, make the connections.
David Junior Gilbert (25:49):
And it’s a shame because many times policy makers really think of the monetary terms rather than that’s what many times evolved down to. But I think there’s a lot society can do, and this is why I think for instance, I have a PhD student who resumes next month and one of the things we’ll be doing is estimating potential costs to, in the justice system for instance in the UK when FASD is ignored, and hopefully that will begin to drive some sorts of interest and curiosity because certainly many times it boils down to finance and the monetary impact, which of course you really shouldn’t be in that sense because the lives of people are much more crucial than anything else. Yes.
Kurt Lewis (26:45):
Yeah. Much more crucial than money anyway. We should be considering people not money at the end of the day when it comes to something like the justice system because it’s a very people driven system, not really a monetary system.
David Junior Gilbert (26:56):
That’s right, that’s right.
Kurt Lewis (27:00):
Gilbert, I’d like to thank you so much for coming on and talking about your research and everything attached. It’s been really fascinating to sit down and talk about all FD and the justice system and I wish you luck with your further research. It sounds like it’s going to be very interesting.
David Junior Gilbert (27:15):
Thank you so much – really appreciate. It’s been lovely speaking with you.
Frances Price (27:22)::
Thank you for listening to this episode of Pregnancy, Alcohol and FASD: The Surprising Reality.
If you like this podcast episode, please show your support by leaving a rating and review on iTunes. We appreciate your feedback. All rights reserved. For more information about Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder please visit NOFASD Australia’s website :www.nofasd.org.au